Logging ‘dries up WA’

Article from the Weekend Financial Review (16-17 Nov, 2013 p10)

Article from the Weekend Financial Review (16-17 Nov, 2013 p10)

Article from the Weekend Financial Review 16-17 of  November, 2013 (page 10)

“The report found 62% of the decline in rainfall in the State’s South West is directly linked to logging”

This isn’t new informatiion. The West Australian State Government have been told that logging effects rainfall by many scientists. However our Premier Colin Barnett is allowing logging to continue in our South West forests and in fact he is planning to increase it.

The native logging industry in WA is bearly profitable and only employs around 400 people. Corporations can sack 2,000 workers in one swoop and you hardly hear anthing about it. Native logging is costing us much more than it makes.

Posted in Climate Change, Drought, Forests, native logging, Nature Preservation, Sustainability, Tree & Forest Health, Trees, Uncategorized, Urban Forest, West Australian Government | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , | 1 Comment

Sell’em off & pack’em in

Carine SHS, October, 2013

Carine SHS, October, 2013,

See this article “Squeeze on Schools” . “ELLENBROOK Secondary College could lose a third of its recreational oval space with the introduction of 30 demountable classrooms over the next three years.”

Get use to crowded public high schools, it seems to be part of the state agenda for us.

The State Government is constantly releasing cheap public land (schools) to developer buddies who demolish all of the often structurally sound buildings, carve it up into lots and sell it off for big profits. Fortunes are being made along the way.

Then the Government goes into the public purse to fund lucrative contracts to cram new buildings or set up demountables on the remaining school properties to accommodate the growing number of students in our rapidly increasing population.

Just out my way north of the river, Churchlands, Carine and Duncraig SHSs have had many big trees, remnant bushland and open space cleared to build big new classroom blocks and other buildings and facilities recently. Sure this is to accommodate influxes of year 7 students who will start attending high school earlier as of next year and need to finish them by January 2014. But surely this beggars the question, couldn’t they have kept some properties like the Edith Cowan/WAIT campus, with all of its perfectly sound class rooms and lecture theatres (or at least part of it) to create a year 11 & 12 centre for Churchlands SHS next door? Why couldn’t the have done the same with the Carine TAFE site down the road from Carine SHS’s year 11’s and 12’s? At Duncraig SHS they have also cleared a big area of trees and remnant bushland to build more classrooms and an administration block after closing nearby Padbury SHS only two years ago, which was very close by (neighbouring Craigie SHS was also sold)?

Why are tax payers paying for all of this unnecessary construction and then being told they have to cut education costs?

Carine SHS sign

In the UK and other places you are not allowed to just demolish structurally sound buildings. This is because the energy used and carbon created in the demolition, construction, building material production processes are massive and they just don’t have the space for all of the rubble to go to land fill. This build to replace attitude must stop because it is wasteful, it is bad for the environment and it is bad for our state education budget. Because if you remember, recently there was some controvesy over the fact that the funds recieved from selling schools does not go to the DET, it just goes to treasury.

They have quite a long list of school properties they sill want to sell. So what does this mean for our kids? Each time they close a school and build a new subdivision it creates more students. Those students and the ones that attended the demolished school are then forced to commute long distances to the nearest high school, often too far to walk or cycle. This leads to road congestion, the overloading of our stretch public transport systems, lost productivity and reduced physical activity and therefore poorer public health outcomes. Basically, greater numbers will have to travel longer distances to crammed overcrowded schools which will have a reduced standards of amenity (i.e. fewer trees and less open space). Meanwhile the developers, big builders and politicians send their kids to beautiful leafy spacious private schools.

Is this a deliberate scam to fleece tax payers by the Development and Construction Complex (DCC) and crony politicians or are they just short sighted and incompetent? They seem to think it is fine to sell off public assets as a means of funding services? But this is not a sustainable business model. You can only sell so many organs and then what? What will they do when there is nothing left to sell? How will the picture look by 2030 if DCC pundits and lobbyists and facilitating crony politicians get their way and our population rises well over 3 million?


Posted in Public Open Spaces, Remnant Bushland, Schools, Sustainability, Transport, Urban Forest, Urban Planning, West Australian Government | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 5 Comments

Woodlands or Wastelands?

Proposed retirement complex for Angelico St, in Woodlands

Proposed retirement complex for Angelico St, in Woodlands







I was horrified at comments made by Councillor Stephanie Proud at the City of Stirling Planning and Development Committee meeting on the 12thof November, around the proposed Retirement Complex development at 17 Angelico Street in Woodlands;

David Barnao the property consultant on the project had just given a 3 minute presentation in defence of their proposed plans.  He explained to the council that his clients, the Dominican Fathers, had purchased the property 50 years ago and now wanted to build a new retirement complex.  He went on to say that his clients had opted to be as sympathetic as possible with design to fit in with the local community and the character of the area.   They initially assessed the heavily vegetated lot and have resolved to keep all of the endangered Tuarts except one that is termite infested (it must be noted that many developers in the City of Stirling just clear lots, level them off and then submit their building plans for approval, to avoid any annoying complications or complaints around removing trees).  They then designed and located the building around those trees.  Under the applicable density regulations adopted by the City of Stirling, they are entitled to build 83 units on the site, but they are only requesting to build 49.  Minimising the foot print to retain the trees, means the building needs to be a bit higher.  Apparently they originally requested to build 4 storeys on a partly submerged basement (under 5 floors), but they have now reduced the request to 3 floors with a deeper basement (less than 4 storeys) to appease local residents.

When Mr Barnao had finished speaking Stephanie Proud asked him in an aggressive manner, “Are you aware that the City of Stirling has NO tree protection laws on private land?  What is to stop you from flattening the lot?”  Then something to the effect, “Are you aware that some residents would prefer that you flatten the lot and reduce the height of building”?

A local resident group spokes person, Margaret Delane, had also given a presentation at the meeting, but against the development.  Margaret expressed resident’s concerns about the height of the building.  She did not mentioned that some residents would prefer the lot to be cleared so the building could be lowered and spread out across the site.  However, the developers have been asked to do this by some residents and it seems Councillor Proud is acting on their behalf to try and make it happen.  Surely the wider community in Woodlands would not agree with this?

Perhaps Councillor Proud and this small group of residents haven’t recognised that we live in an extremely hot dry climate and are unaware that trees, cool the air, cool the ground, encourage rainfall and their shade also helps prevent moisture evaporating from the soil.  Hard surfaces like roads, pavement, concrete, brick walls and dark tiled roofs absorb heat during the day and radiate heat at night.  This is called the ‘Urban Heat Island Effect’.  A Town Planner recently recorded ground temperatures on a 31 degree day at 3pm and found the pavement under the shade of the trees was 31 degrees, the pavement in the full sun was 60 degrees (and the artificial turf was 70 degrees).  Thermal imaging clearly shows green leafy suburbs are cooler.  The number of trees in an area have been clearly linked to the number of death and hospital admissions in Australian heatwaves.

Shade from large trees protecting buildings from the hot sun can reduce air-conditioning requirements substantially.  As a stark warning, be aware that the State Government is currently considering a special mandatory switches for all houses that would shut down air-conditioning units if the grid gets overloaded on hot days.  Given that the grid is barely coping in summer as it is, imagine the problems going forward if our population doubles?  But with scant regard to common sense we are creating treeless air-conditioning dependent suburbs.   Here in Perth, more so than many other cities in the world, we need to retain and plant as many urban trees as possible to help control temperatures.

If this isn’t enough to convince you that we need to retain our trees, they also filter pollution from the air, asthma levels are lower in suburbs with lots of trees.  Green treed areas also improve our mental and physical health according to many studies.  For the ardent biophobics out there who still aren’t convinced, they also increase property values?  The most expensive visually pleasing suburbs in Perth are the ‘leafy suburbs’ and Woodlands is one of them.   Woodlands wouldn’t be Woodlands without its beautiful mature trees and leafy character.

Some developers like the ones in this case are trying to do the right thing and retain as many trees as possible.  According to one of Perth’s leading urban planner Dr Linely Lutton, this is very positive and it is called “optimising rather than maximising a development”.  The end result is usually a far more attractive than a crammed in treeless second rate job.   Perth people have to understand that whether we like it or not our population is growing rapidly and we have to get use to the fact that we are going to have to go up higher.  This is happening all over Perth.  This obviously does not mean that developers can as high as they like, wherever they like.  Clearly there must be restriction and rules to prevent ugly overly tall buildings being stuck in inappropriate places.

It must be recognised that when apartment buildings are surrounded by large trees they blend in to the street far better and act to increase privacy.   This is a quality building, it is not overly high and it’s appearance will be softened by  very large trees, surely this would be far better aesthetically than an unconcealed two storey building covering far more of the site?  Flattering the lot is totally contrary to all modern urban design aspirations and principals.    It must also be pointed out that this proposed building will be 50m from the nearest house.  The people of Angelico Street should spare a thought for residents next to Churchlands Senior High School who have been unsuccessful in trying to stop a 9m high 700 student classroom block being built 4 meters from their children’s bedrooms (3 meters from their fence).

Many seniors feel safer in apartments, they like to be up off street level for security reasons and may also like to be surrounded by trees and birds.  For older Woodlands residents who don’t want to leave this lovely leafy area, this would be a lovely place to live.  Perhaps residents should have a think about where they are going to live in their twilight years?  Because inevitably many will end up in retirement villages too and let me warn you, some of them are horrendous urban heat sinks.

It is time for all Perth people to wake up and start valuing trees.   We simply cannot afford to continue to turn Perth into a sprawling treeless sea of air-conditioning dependent one and two story buildings.  It is madness.

Woodlands residents should be aware that a decision will be made on this development at the Council Meeting on Tuesday the 19th of November which starts at 7pm.

by Leisha Jack


Posted in Nature Preservation, Planning and Public Health, Tree Protection Laws, Trees, Urban Forest, Urban Heat Island Effect, Urban Planning | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 3 Comments

How should Perth respond to a growing population?

Dr Linley Lutton

Dr Linley Lutton

On Sunday the 10th of Novermber 2013, Urban Planner  Dr Linley Lutton gave this prestentaion in Subiaco (Perth, Western Australia) to members of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA);

How should Perth respond to a growing population?

How should Perth respond to a growing population.

Posted in Planning and Public Health, Public Open Spaces, Sustainability, Urban Forest, Urban Planning, West Australian Government | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , | Leave a comment

Attempt to remove the Dadour right


The Barnett Government is trying remove (or change) a provision in the Local Government Act called the Dadour Provision, that gives communities the right to vote on whether they want amalgamations or not.  A decision could be made very soon.

Many WA citizens and politicians from both sides of politics are outraged at the audacity of the State Government attempting to remove a voting right from the people who elected it.

This was a hard fought for right, by Dr Tom Dadour of Subiaco in the 1970’s.  The reason he fought for this right was to help protect Subiaco (and the rest of us) against Premiers who might try to force amalgamations.

Liberal MPs are receiving a lot of complaints and some have a moral issue with this proposal which is causing some division in the party.

See this Media Statement by the The Dadour Group;

“The group is not advocating for or against amalgamations but rather seeks to alert voters to the deeply flawed morality of any parliament removing a pre-existing voting right from the people – its masters. Before Parliament can consider removing a right to vote from those who elect it, it requires clearly established public support for the move, otherwise it is akin to plotting treason.”

What we can do to stop this;

The Dadour Group is calling on as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, to write preferably hand-written letters to Liberal Cabinet members  and their own Members of Parliament warning of the fundamental immorality of usurping people’s voting rights (posted by this Wednesday 9th). There are always lots of contentious issues being presented to Cabinet – but not often moral outrage from citizens about the fundamentals of politics – removing democratic rights.

They say hand-written letters to members of Cabinet is the gold standard for letter writing.   Letters can be typed, but they do not have as much impact.  Letters posted after Wednesday will be far less valuable due to delivery delay, in which case emails then make sense, but they have much less traction because they imply much less effort and thus implied depth of feeling.   It is also the case that emails are much less likely to be read by the members themselves.

Contact Malcolm Mummery for more information on 04 37379095

See more on the at  My Local Government website

What people are saying;

Post Sept 2013

Post Sept 2013

Letter to the Post, 05/09/13

Letter to the Post, 05/09/13

Post 28/09/13 pg 11

Post 28/09/13 pg 11  


Stirling Times Sept 2013

Stirling Times Sept 2013


Posted in West Australian Government | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , | 9 Comments

State Agenda

Just encase you have any doubts about who is really setting the agenda for this state, see
this is an article from The West Australian under the ‘Property’ section from before the State Election on the  24/11/12 , page 20);

(Click article to enlarge)

Property Council -West 24-11-12 p20No surprise then that we get this;

Developers agree on merger benefits

Developers agree on merger benefits


Posted in DAPs, High-rise, Density & Urban Sprawl, Planning Laws, West Australian Government | Tagged , , , , , , , , | Leave a comment

Developers to cash in on public school sell offs?

No doubt news that the government intends to sell off more public school properties has developers like the extremely profitable public company “Cedar Woods” positively hopping with anticipation?  See this article in today’s West .

Cedar Woods are the developer partners with the State Government’s LandCorp for the proposed Mangles Bay Marina private/commercial development on Point Peron public land in Rockingham.   They also got the Carine TAFE site deal with LandCorp and the St Ives Group (See Carine Rise).

The 7.93 hectare TAFE site has recently been bulldozed, wiping out bushland and about 150 trees. Local residents, activists and some City of Stirling Councillors tried to have the scale of the private retirement village and housing development scaled back and some of the trees saved, but to no avail.

The Carine TAFE site as it was before clearing and the approved Carine Rise plans

The Carine TAFE site as it was before clearing and the approved Carine Rise plans

You always hear that developers often get hold of our public land for a song? So we have asked the State Government to let us know how much Cedar Woods will be paying for the Point Peron land or exactly what they would be required to build to get it (see our post)?  We sent these questions to the Premier and various relevant Ministers, but we still haven’t received an answer.  

According to the State Manager of Cedar Woods, “they don’t know how much the land will cost them, it still has to be decided by Cabinet”.   Are we expected to believe that Cedar Woods has gone into this deal and conduced all of the preliminary planning and marketing work without knowing how much the land will cost them?  If this is true, then they must be fairly confident the Government will look after them on on price?  Acquiring land as cheaply as possible and selling it for a profit is what developers do and in Cedar Woods case, extremely successfully. 

See more Cedar Woods articles in The Australian  , including this recent one  Cedar Woods hits record territory (August 22, 2013 ).

Posted in Environmental Protection, High-rise, Density & Urban Sprawl, LandCorp, Mail Out, Remnant Bushland, Trees, Uncategorized, Urban Forest, Urban Planning, West Australian Government | Tagged , , , | Leave a comment

Plans to sell off public schools and cram in students?

According to The West Australian, the Minister for Education Mr Collier has ” admitted he was looking at school closures and amalgamations“, in this article today – Jobs go in education overhaul.  What this undoubtedly means is the selling off of more publicly owed school properties, even though our population is going to double?

So what will this mean for all of the extra students going forward?

The WA Department of Education’s current plans for Churchlands High School may give some indication?   They are proposing to squeeze in a big new two storey classroom complex on the Eastern boundary of the school to accommodate 700 new students for the start of next year.  This development is  rife with issues and appears to ignore modern urban planning principals and crime prevention guidelines.


Proposed building block on green open space.

Apart from the tragic destruction of valuable public amenity, including 30 healthy shade trees and the close proximity to a residents property, what is of considerable concern is the proposed removal of the existing tree lined community pathway along the fence?  This path is used extensively by local residents and students to access the playing fields and the pool for exercise.  It is important public health infrastructure;

Concerns are that this development will;

1.   Increase vandalism and graffiti (and/or much higher ongoing security costs)

2.  Have a considerable negative impact on the life styles of local residents and students who live in surrounding streets or attend the school

3.  Replace a healthy green open space with a much smaller constricted  hard edged compound for students.

It is clear to see how these issues have been over looked, as a Health Impact Assessments has not been conducted on these plans as it is not their policy to do so.

Community Pathway

Moving the building in and reducing its size would allow the retention of the  pathway and ensure the survival of some of  the trees, which would screen the  backside of building for neighbouring residents.

Moving the building in (as shown here) and reducing its size would allow the retention of the pathway and ensure the survival of some of the trees, which would screen the backside of building for neighbouring residents.

To get people out of cars and exercising more, health experts and urban planners are busy creating shady green pathways and treed streetscape networks between activity nodes such as schools, shops and parks, because these paths encourage people to get out and walk or cycle.  Urban Planners refer to this concept as “Connectivity” and use terms such as “green links”, “green corridors” or “green connections”.  See this recent article in The West Australian, “the study found suburbs with a mixed land use – for example those with well-connected tree-lined routes which were close to shops or parks – had the lowest obesity rates.”  Removing this pathway would have a negative impact on the lifestyles and exercise routines of many local residents and children who live in the neighbourhood.

With our growing population and urban densification, planning authorities and Local Governments are pushing for greater collaboration with government and private schools to share school ground amenities with their local communities.  Yet it seems Churchlands has an opposite agenda and is planning on locking out the community?

view of lane way from the street

View of the pathway entrance and site of the building (trees to be removed).

For more information on “Connectivity” see;

  • Healthy Spaces & Places   (a unique collaboration between the Australian Local Government Association, the National Heart Foundation of Australia and the Planning Institute of Australia and funded by the Australian Government Department of Health and Ageing.)    See Connectivity , Walkable Neighbourhoods and  Parks and Open Spaces
  •  Liveable Neighbourhoods  (Department of Planning and Infrastructure and the WA Planning Commission Planning WA).  This urban planning policy makes many references to “connectivity” in their urban  planning policies (PDF document )
        • Connectivity (i.e. “connectivity of street systems with activity nodes”)  Guide pg 13. Street Network and lot layout (R8)  – Element 1, pg 9.
        • Movement Network (Introduction) Element 2,  pg 1.
        • Local Parks (R14) Element 4, pg 7  (also refers to visual supervision)

 Graffiti and Vandalism

Blocking off pathways and visibility into the school and shutting out local residents with high walled buildings, fences and gates, will increase vandalism and graffiti, as crime rates are higher in areas isolated from public scrutiny.  Public areas that are under surveillance by residents have lower crime rates.  See page 4,  the theory of “Defensible Space”, from Preventing Graffiti and Vandalism  , by the Australian Institute of Criminology;

Page 60;

• “The school building should also relate to the community, so that neighbours can supervise by overlooking the school keeper’s entrances.”

• “Concealed inner courts are particularly vulnerable and need a high degree of security in detailing doors and windows.”

•” ……  Open-plan designs used in recent buildings make surveillance by police and public much easier.”

It must also be remembered that criminal acts around schools cause anxiety among students, teachers, staff and local residents.

Constricted hard edged compound

This plan will remove an area of valued green open space with 30 mature shade trees on the school grounds.  These areas are important for the mental well-being of students.  Studies show that pleasant green treed areas are calming and have a positive effect on mental health.   It is also well documented that cramming large numbers of people into small enclosed areas causes stress.  Increasing the number of students and decreasing the space and greenery, will reduce the quality of the space for students and staff.    

Additional  concerns;

  • Trees on fence line will not survive

Contrary to DET’s arboricultural report, the 9 trees that would remain along the fence line are unlikely to survive.  Local residents have commissioned another report by Perth’s leading arboricultural consultant/scientist (a tree pathologist) and he says that it is extremely unlikely that the trees would survive.

  • Inappropriate scale and proximity to resident’s homes

The scale of the building, its position and proximity to local residents is inappropriate and unfair.

Current view from the neighbour's property

Current view from the neighbour’s property

CSHS Proposed School Building

Artist’s impression of the scale and impact the building will have on the neighbouring property and streetscape.

The Post, 22nd of June, 2013

The Post, 22nd of June, 2013

Planning foresight

Perhaps the State Government shouldn’t have sold off  Scarborough SHS, WAIT (Edith Cowan University) and the Carine TAFE sites if the population is growing and space is such an issue?  It now seems that  DET is caught out and rushing to cram in poorly thought through boxes and recklessly degrading  valuable public amenity and the quality of  learning environments for our students.  What will schools look like in 20 years time?

Yet again we are reminded of how far behind WA is in its foresight and approach to planning.  In the UK for example, no one can demolish buildings unless it can be proven that they are structurally unsound.   This is because of the lack of space for rubble in landfills and the enormous amount of energy and carbon emissions involved in rebuilding, not to mention the public funds.

Perhaps DET should have retained at least a section of the old WAIT (Edith Cowan University) complex, which could have been refurbished to create a Churchlands SHS year 11/12 block, complete with mature trees and lecture theaters for a transitional pre-uni feel?

  • Urban Forest

It is time for community leaders in WA to better understand the critical value of urban forests in their cities — to their own lives, health, economies and well-being of their communities. Trees provide many services, including reducing local  temperatures, filtering the air, reduce noise, they create rainfall and improve mental health.

  • Urban Heat Island Effect

With rising temperatures and energy costs mitigating the  Urban Heat Island Effect (UHIE)  is well overdue consideration in planning in WA.  The best way to  mitigate the UHEI is with trees and greenery.  Areas with more trees and greenery are cooler.

Hopefully DET will be sympathetic to the negative impacts that these plans would have on the quality of life of local residents and students.  Learning institutions should be modern and inspiring places.  A lot more thought and ingenuity could go into these plans.  Perhaps the kids could help design a green building?  A simple building with a living roof, solar panels and partly underground to avoid air-conditioning costs?

Sustainability and respect for people and our communities are the most important things we can teach our children.

Posted in High-rise, Density & Urban Sprawl, Planning and Public Health, POS, Public Open Spaces, Sustainability, Tree Removal & Mulching Industry, Trees, Uncategorized, Urban Forest, Urban Heat Island Effect, Urban Planning, West Australian Government | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , | Leave a comment

Europe pulls the plug on its green future?

Solar panels spain Benny peiser article

How low can Rupert go?

The Weekend Australian, August 10-11, 2013, pg 17 (Inquirer)

Don’t worry if you can’t open this link on The Australian on-line site (you need to be a subscriber), because here it is on the author’s blog (Benny Peiser)  The Global Warming Policy Foundation .

Read about Benny Peiser on the ‘Sceptics’ Hall of Shame

Benny peiser

Note in the article Peiser says ” A study by British public relations consultancy CCGroup analysed 138 articles about renewables published during July last year in the five most widely circulated British national newspapers: The Sun, The Times, The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail and Daily Mirror, which enjoy a combined daily circulation of about 6.5 million.”  It must be noted that these are all conservative tabloid publications.  Talk about argumentum ad numerum .

Peiser is the founder of CCNet, could CCNet be conected to the PR company “CCGroup” who did the study or is this just a freak coincidence?

To understand the role of advocate scientists like Peiser and PR firms play in the climate debate watch this video with David Michaels the author of Doubt is Their Product .  Also see Naomi Oreske’s brilliant book Merchants of Doubt.  Both authors explain how the tobacco, fossil fuel industries and many others employ or sponsor dodgy scientists to raise doubt around scientific studies that criticize their industries.

According to the ‘Sceptics Hall of Shame, ” Peiser wrote a paper criticizing Dr Naomi Oreskes’ study which reviewed 928 research papers on climate change, finding they all agreed with the scientific consensus. Peiser claimed that 34 of these “reject or doubt” the scientific consensus for man-made global warming, but later retracted this, admitting that only one did.”

Like Abbott and probably even Nick Minchin, Peiser isn’t stupid enough to outright deny climate change, his objective is to play it down and stall action on it, blaming much of the concern on “media hype”.

As for the claims in the article, it is as though Peiser is blaming the global economic crisis in Europe on renewable energy and an nothing to do with disarster capitalism and an unregulated banking system gone mad

Posted in Climate Change, Climate Sceptics, Rupert Murdoch, The Australian, Uncategorized | Tagged , , , , | Leave a comment

Save 40 Hectares of “Bush Forever”

Bush Forever Point Peron, Western Australia

Bush Forever Point Peron, Western Australia

Please sign this CCWA On-line petition  to help save this beautiful reserved Bush Forever site in Point Peron from greedy developers and crony government.  Developers Landcorp and Cedar Woods plan to dig it out and turn into a private canal housing estate and commercial marina.

This is public land, IT IS OUR LAND. It must not be sold off to private interests.

See the  Hands Off Point Peron  website for more information and like them on Facebook .


Posted in Canal Developments, LandCorp, Mail Out, Marine Developments, Nature Preservation, Planning and Public Health, Point Peron, Remnant Bushland, Sustainability, Tree Protection Laws, Trees, Urban Forest, Urban Planning, West Australian Government | Tagged , , , , , , | Leave a comment